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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2015 16:27:37 GMT
With the recent snow storm dumping 12 plus inches of wet, heavy snow on the Glastonburys, discussion has started regarding the need for another snow plowing truck to better maintain our roads during the winter months. With only one GLA truck it became evident that without landowners volunteering their time and equipment it would have taken much longer to accomplish the job. Thanks to all who contributed.
This thread is started to offer a place to discuss the pros and cons as to whether or not the GLA should invest in a second truck for snow plowing and sanding. My thoughts are:
How often is a second truck needed? Do not make hasty decisions based on one or two rogue storms alone. Consult with those who have helped plow in the past. Are they willing to continue in the future either on a volunteer or contract basis? Might it be more economical to use volunteers and contractors when necessary than to invest in a truck that may only be required a few times a season? How will this purchase be funded? Is it time to form two road committees and budgets, one for North and one for South under the GLA umbrella? With two trucks, one could be used in NG and funded by NG assessments, and one could be used in SG and funded by SG assessments.
Please join the discussion by commenting below.
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Post by timbrockett on Nov 7, 2015 17:30:55 GMT
I support the idea of purchasing a second snow plow. I think each half of our community should have it's own truck, plow and sander. Our roads are not connected and NG needs are very different than those in SG. I believe that SG should purchase a new used truck and snow plow and NG should retain the current truck for their use.
1) SG has about $23,000.00 in their reserve road fund and they can and should pay for the truck and plow. They also have about $12,000.00 more in their road budget for 2016 than they did in 2015 because the Road Loan is paid off. 2) Buying a new used truck for SG would provide better road service for North because the current truck could be used exclusively for North. The current truck would also last longer if just used for North. NG has 4 miles of paved roads that ice over quickly and are used by every resident. Sanding is critical and could best be done by a truck located in NG and reserved for use just in NG. (Except in an emergency). 3) High South needs a V plow with a 3/4 ton truck that has a bed to fit the second sander sitting at SpecTec. Only a V plow can effectively move the amounts of snow we get in High South. Using the current truck and plow for that will wear it out quickly. A V plow can effectively plow smaller amounts in lower south and even be used to clear roads in NG should an emergency arise or an extra heavy storm pass by. 4) No landowner that I know, except Walter Wunsch, has a V plow. Walter plows lower Hercules so his 24 employees can get to work every day. In the 10 years I have lived in High South I have never seen him use his V plow to assist landowners past SpecTec. Perhaps that will change and he will volunteer his truck to plow Upper Hercules and ancillary roads. If he declines then the GLA should purchase a V plow and 3/4 ton truck for use on all SG roads. Buying a second truck and plow would benefit both North and South Glastonbury. The money is available and assessments would not have to be raised. A second truck could be a long term investment in our roads and an asset for our community.
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Post by Carol on Nov 7, 2015 17:32:44 GMT
Thank you to averyone who helped especially Chuck Tanner who helped in our neighborhood. I agree that we should not buy another snow plow that we seldom need when we have generous and supportive landowners willing to help out occasionally donating their equipment and time.
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Post by charlene on Nov 7, 2015 18:31:03 GMT
The information below is from Fred, the GLA plow employee, regarding the current GLA plow truck
Fred says that he and Walter went to Bozeman and looked at a new-to-us plow truck last spring. It looked to be sufficient for GLA's needs. The plow truck he uses now is actually built for a lot less usage. For example, this last snowstorm, Nov 3rd, he plowed something near 40 miles of roads in 15 hours using an entire tank of fuel. It isn't designed for that kind of usage. Breakdowns are common because of stress on this truck, and upkeep is expensive with parts, etc. A larger plow truck would be more suited to heavier plowing. Charlene
I am offering the comments below that I received from five different landowners regarding a new plow truck. Since I didn't have permission to use their names I have them listed as simply landowner.
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Hi Charlene,
I have a suggestion. Instead of investing in a large expense of a second truck and its upkeep, perhaps in the “snow” budget could be funds for the exceptional snow like we had last Tuesday. These monies could be used to pay a stipend to those dear volunteers who helped out last Tuesday. If there were a couple of individuals who agreed to be called if needed and would receive a stipend for their fuel and time. Then we have help when and if we need it without the large output of money for a truck. Plus, it honors the volunteers and shows the gratitude the community has for them.
Thanks for the opportunity to share ideas.
NG landowner
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Regarding the purchase of another truck for plowing: How often is a second truck needed? Do not make hasty decisions based on one or two rogue storms alone. Consult with those who have helped plow in the past. Are they willing to continue in the future either on a volunteer or contract basis? Might it be more economical to use volunteers and contractors when necessary than to invest in a truck that may only be required a few times a season?
A few thoughts to consider,
NG landowner
**************************** Thanks Charlene,
I have been asking for that 2nd snowplow truck for some time. If our one truck breaks down, we are going to regret not getting a 2nd one sooner. So Please stay on this. I talked with a few about what a 2nd truck and plow would cost, about $8-10K for a used truck and new plow, so it is definitely possible.
Sincerely, NG landowner
***************************** I had seen my neighbor, plowing the Post Office parking lot on Wednesday with her small tractor. Wouldn't a tractor, a larger one with a cab, be more versatile for the GLA? Since many issues come up during the year where a tractor would be of use?
Just a thought, NG landowner
******************************* Hi Charlene, As you evaluate the idea (it's a good one to consider) of an extra plow, I'm thinking that an important piece of the puzzle is how often snows such as this one occur. That, of course, is at least partly guess work, but it should be possible to get access to weather records for say the last 20 years to see the frequency of such big storms. Then, from a cost/benefit point of view, the challenge becomes what is it worth to be ready for the big ones that only happen "rarely". Again, thanks for the valuable updates.
Regards, SG landowner
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Post by Regina Wunsch on Nov 7, 2015 22:53:55 GMT
In respect to buying a second plow, I would like to point out that low SG always gets plowed after NG. Therefore the residents of low SG do not have the benefit of having plowed or sanded roads when they leave for work or take their children to the bus stop--benefits that NG has every time there is ice and snow. Walter opens up Dry Creek road early in the morning, but the landowners from low SG have to be able to get there. So I think it would be a good idea to get the landowners in low SG to weigh in on whether being plowed after NG works for them or not. The reason that the GLA bought a second truck years ago was because having to wait until the plowing/sanding was done in NG did not work well for low SG landowners. It was not based on response time during an occasional snow storm as we had this week.
NG and SG paid for both GLA trucks and the repairs for the current one. Therefore in my opinion, if the GLA buys a second truck, the costs should be split between NG and SG. This also goes for the repairs that are needed for the sander that is on the scrapped GLA truck. This second sander is not operational and apparently needs costly repairs. Both NG and SG funds were used to pay for the extensive repairs the current truck, plow and sander needed. Furthermore, I believe the GLA should own both trucks, with one being parked in NG and the other in SG, both used wherever needed. Otherwise we will have an accounting nightmare keeping track of the costs, if SG needs to use the NG truck and vice versa for plowing and/or sanding. All of the hours will have to be tracked and overhead costs will have to be prorated and separated out. While SG at his point does have a lot of money in its road fund, one needs to consider the present state of the SG gravel roads. Hercules is down to bedrock in a lot of places. Arcturus is in a constant state of washboard. Most of the side roads have received little or no maintenance. Most roads need proper ditches for drainage to prevent further erosion. Some roads could use guardrails. Even with the extra road money both SG and NG are getting due to the early loan payoff, it is not enough to get all of the roads into reasonable shape. There is talk of treating Arcturus with an environmentally product to prevent washboard. It will take most, if not all of the SG Road Fund money to prep Arcturus properly, apply the product and do the necessary follow up applications.
The benefits of having two GLA trucks as I see it, would be that low SG would get the same timely service that NG enjoys, there would be less wear and tear on the trucks and there would be a back up truck with sander, if one is out for repair. None of the back up contractors have sanders and no contractors in the valley have sanders anymore. The only option for deicing is mag chloride. The GLA had to resort to this twice two years ago, because the truck was out for repair. It cost almost $500 for each application. Of course there is also the consideration of damage to the vehicles by corrosion caused by mag chloride and damage to the environment.
But the question at hand is, if these benefits outweigh the costs. I believe the answer to that question will depend on where a given landowner lives and what the needs are regarding road use--do landowners have a job to go to, children to take to the bus stop or school events, have clients come to their house for services, or are they retired with a flexible schedule.
What are the other options, besides buying a truck? Tim suggested (see comment above) that Walter "volunteer" the use of his truck with the V plow for plowing Upper Hercules and Sag Skyway and Sag Place as the only alternative to the GLA buying a second truck.
First I would like to respond to Tim's statement that to his knowledge Walter has never used his V-plow past the Scorpio/Polaris/Hercules intersection: Last Thanksgiving Day Walter spend six hours helping out neighbours and plowing Upper Hercules and Sag Skyway with his Vplow, because the GLA back up employee and back up contractor both refused to plow, because it was a holiday. Fred was out of town. Walter also used his V plow to remove slush on both roads on at least five occasions at no charge. Walter has helped out neighbours and landowners in High South, low South and even NG at all hours of the day and night using whatever plow did the job. As for the 3/4 ton truck with a second Vplow that Walter purchased last summer, that has not been in service anywhere except for one trial run, because the truck and plow needed repairs. Walter just picked the truck up yesterday.
We pay an employee to open up Hercules from the Polaris/Hercules intersection and Dry Creek Road, if necessary with whatever plow does the job Monday through Friday, except on holidays . But we are not in the snow plowing business and not able or willing to take on the responsibility for plowing Hercules seven days a week, Upper Hercules, Sag Skyway, Sag Place, Scorpio, all of Polaris, and Libra. All of our trucks are owned by the company. Personal use helping out neighbours is prorated and Walter, as the owner of our company, has personal liability for damage etc. . If we would "volunteer" the use of any of our trucks, as Tim suggested to plow all of high South, who would be operating them? A GLA employee, a volunteer landowner? Who would be liable for any damage and wear and tear to the truck/plow or any accident while plowing? According to Montana law the owner of the vehicle is liable for any accident regardless of who is operating it at the time of the accident. We are not willing to put ourselves in that position and do not feel that is a reasonable request or suggestion.
In the past the GLA hired then board member and Sag Place landowner Rich Spallone to plow Upper Hercules and Sag Skyway (and Hercules on weekends, holidays and evenings, if necessary), Libra, Scorpio and Polaris on a contract basis.
So if it works for low SG landowners to be plowed/sanded after NG, an alternative to buying a second trucks would be to find a contractor with the necessary equipment to do Upper Hercules, Sag Skyway and Place, Libra, Scorpio, Polaris and Hercules, if necessary, if the GLA truck is too busy doing NG and low SG on a given day. If there is a storm like the one this week, volunteers can certainly make a difference in opening up side roads and driveways. But I believe they should not be relied on to open up the main arteries in NG and SG and keep them reasonably open. They could be ill, out of town or their equipment could be down. There should be enough back up contractors with the proper equipment to help out the GLA plow truck, if there is only one truck. Having Fred put in a 15 hour day as he did this week is not fair to him or safe as a long term solution, in my opinion.
There is another option to consider, if low SG landowners are satisfied with the current arrangement. "High" South is last in line for plowing due to population density and Upper Hercules and Sag Skyway are last on the main artery plowing list. In the Scorpio/Polaris/Hercules neighborhood four other landowners, besides us have invested in heavy duty plows. That way they can plow their own driveways, the stretch of road to get to Hercules and Hercules on weekends, holidays and evenings and get to their appointments, work etc. in a timely manner or home late at night in event of substantial snow forecast late in the day. Maybe the landowners on Upper Hercules and Sag Skyway could consider this option for themselves, if the wait for the GLA truck is too long? Or all chip in and buy a truck and plow jointly to open up the roads in their neighborhoods? Then the GLA truck could come at a later time or the next day day to widen the road. They could also "volunteer" the use of their truck to the GLA for a SG GLA snow employee to come up the mountain and do this cleanup work, if they do not mind the liability involved. That would not only expedite the service, but save the GLA having to pay for the trip from NG to SG and back, free up the GLA truck for other work and save on wear and tear on the GLA truck.
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Post by Pat NG on Nov 9, 2015 0:29:47 GMT
No...doesn't GLA have enough debts? Money management at this time seems to be a problem.
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Post by val on Nov 10, 2015 2:19:17 GMT
A$10k expense for a used truck and new plow attachment is not a lot of money. As regina said, we need another snowplow especially if our one and only plow breaks down; which contradicts any argument against getting a 2nd truck.
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Post by Devil Dog on Nov 10, 2015 4:28:39 GMT
If the GLA were to hire independent contractors, I believe that they would be using their own insurance, maintaining their own vehicles, and be responsible for towing if needed. Also we would only be paying for services as needed. The contractors would need to be advised that resident volunteers could still plow if able.
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marks
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Post by marks on Nov 10, 2015 16:20:10 GMT
Based on the 2016 budget numbers in addition to the cost of the truck purchase, we also will need $8000 per year for maintenance and licensing plus we have $8000 per yer budgeted to pay wages for a driver. Assuming that a second driver would reduce the time spend by the first driver, the wages per driver should come down, but it will almost certainly cost more per year than we're paying now. So lets say the wages goes up to $10,000 per year, that means an added yearly expense of $10,000, in addition to the truck purchase cost. Right now, the 2016 budget is at break even based on what looks to be a slightly optimistic expectation for landowners paying their dues. To cover the annual increase in costs, assessments would need to go up by $16 plus we might need a special assessment of $16 to cover the purchase (assuming we could get a reliable truck for $10k). So the big question is, "Are folks willing to pay those increased costs?"
I've started digging into weather records and it looks like we'll need to pay to get accurate records ($40 should cover it). Based on "official weather observer reports" from the National Weather Service since 2002 (that are quite spotty because for example the Thanksgiving storm from a couple of years ago isn't listed) it looks like we average one snowfall per winter that exceeds 9 inches.
The landowners who jumped in and helped out are owed a big thanks and in my view, should be paid something for their efforts. Having folks like that in reserve for the occasional big storms seems to me to be the best option although I agree that the timing of the plowing, sanding, or deicing in SG is also important for folks going to work or getting kids to school.
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Post by Charlotte Mizzi on Nov 10, 2015 23:09:56 GMT
Jim, Thanks for putting together this forum. It is great to get landowners opinions especially on the issue of purchasing or not purchasing a truck for the snow. I will be accessing this site on a regular basis and also see what other issues landowners are concerned about. Charlotte
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kevin
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I want our comunity to be a positive one and have BBQ's together.
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Post by kevin on Nov 12, 2015 0:06:07 GMT
I do not think we can afford a new/used snow plow truck and all the other stuff that comes with it. Another sand pit and covering for it. Another back hoe, another sander and then more maintenance costs. These things are expensive. Who is going to be the keeper of the new plow? All things to think about. However on another note. We could use one. We need to get our finances in line. By that I mean collecting the dues we are suppose to have. Just like most every other business, they depend on their income to operate. We miss out on a lot of it and run pay check to pay check. Kevin
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Post by Charlene M on Nov 19, 2015 13:43:24 GMT
This info is from Paul who cannot attend the road committee meeting tonight, Nov 19th. Email from: Paul Email Subject: Re: Road Committee Meeting Email Body:
I drove the snowplow 08-10 seasons and think the plow was around 10k to buy, it was a good pusher
much better traction than the diesel plow.
Big problem though, it had been driven by
people, who should not even have a drivers
license .
Box and cab were partially crushed from
rollover ,and I spent a lot of time welding
the plow and the conveyor ,just to keep it
running.
Being automatic the transmission was
pushed to the limit, so finally it gave up
with Walter doing hi south.
The lesson is plow truck ownership is
sustainable only if the main driver is a
mechanic and able to train other drivers
in the care and service of the truck.
Take a look at our repair bills over the
years and HAIR RAISING!!!!
Here is my reply to Paul from Charlene:
To clarify the truck we have now was purchased, used, for $12K about 9-10 years ago. It had been damaged by the previous owners. It is a one ton truck that is not built for the type of heavy use it gets with the GLA. Brakes wear out quickly with the constant back and forth that wears the master cylinder. (a large truck has air brakes) The brakes have been worked on 3 times in 3 years. The power steering takes a beating with the heavy weight of the plow on the front putting pressure on the power steering with every turn. Master cylinder and lines just replaced and it could be the steering box. Our roads are rough and plow 'shoes' are knocked off regularly and have to be replaced, and the very next rock can ding the blade edge. A new battery bought 1.5 years ago didn't start recently. The electric-hydraulic system that lifts the blade puts a lot of demand and drain on the battery. (as opposed to a P.TO. gear driven system in a large truck..PTO -power take off)
This mechanical info is from Fred our driver/mechanic.
Charlene M
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kevin
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I want our comunity to be a positive one and have BBQ's together.
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Post by kevin on Nov 20, 2015 21:04:26 GMT
We had a good meeting last night. Thanks for all 15 people that were there. We need another truck. We shall look into it. just not a monster heavy duty truck that requires special driver license to operate. Thanks to Walter for looking into the big truck. It is a good deal. Just not something we can afford to operate. I also think we should look out of state for a good deal. There are a lot of "Parking lot" 4X4 trucks that never get used for their intended purpose and get dumped for sale.Truck trader.com is a good place to start. I can help go get it. Did someone say road trip?
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